Unraveling Complexity: Rami Khouri on the Israeli-Palestinian Quagmire

Truly, my passion lies in history. I recall mentioning before we started recording that at the tender age of nine or ten, I was utterly captivated when I picked up a book from Perry Barr library about the Six-Day War. There I was, a young boy in shorts, awestruck by the skill and fortitude of the Israeli army and the charismatic Moshe Dayan with his eye patch.

I also came to understand the deep tragedy of the Palestinian people, who had lived in this land for aeons, only to find themselves displaced by the conflicts of 1967, and earlier in 1948. This book, which I read and devoured just a mile down the road from where I currently reside, left an indelible impression on me. The Jewish people suffered not only during the Holocaust in World War II but also faced historic pogroms throughout Europe. It's crucial to recognize that these pogroms were not instigated by the Palestinian or Arab peoples.

Post-1945, the necessity to provide a safe haven for these people, who were denied refuge in Europe, was evident. However, this led to the dispossession of those who had been living in that land, a tragedy that touches both sides. Reflecting on the dark and brutal attack on Southern Israel on October 7th, and the events thereafter, I find myself thinking we are beginning to see a glimmer of hope for the Palestinian people, a chance for them to reclaim their land and live with a measure of security. This feels odd considering that 90% of the population has been displaced and over 25,000 killed. However, a shift in attitudes towards a Palestinian state is gradually becoming apparent as Western governments increasingly recognize their current plight. Emphasising this point, one does not need to be anti-Israeli to understand and empathise with the statelessness of the Palestinian people.

This cause has been a profound passion of mine since my childhood, sparked by that first book. The Israeli people rightfully need their land and security, but this shouldn't come at the expense of the Palestinian people. History has shown that Jews and Muslims have coexisted in that land for millennia, living side by side for nearly 2000 years since the Romans expelled the Jewish people in the first century AD.

This week I spoke to Rami Khouri, the Director of Global Engagement at the American University of Beirut. Here are excerpts from our conversation.

Mid Atlantic Podcast: A Critical Discussion on the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Host: Roifield Brown

Guest: Rami Khouri

Roifield Brown: Hi, hello, and welcome. This is Mid Atlantic, the podcast where we delve into the intricacies of international relations and current events. I'm Roifield Brown, broadcasting from Birmingham, England. Today, we're examining a crucial and timely issue with a very special guest, Rami Khouri, a distinguished figure in journalism, academia, and international policy.

Rami Khouri serves as the Director of Global Engagement at the American University of Beirut. He is globally recognized as an internationally syndicated political columnist and author, known for his peace-promoting efforts, and notably received the Pax Christi International Peace Award in 2006.

Today, our conversation with Rami Khouri focuses on the urgent and poignant topic of the ongoing Israeli invasion of Gaza and the dire situation facing the Palestinian people. We're particularly concerned about Gaza being on the brink of famine. A UN-affiliated panel has issued a stark warning about the imminent threat of famine in Gaza, exacerbated by logistical challenges and lengthy inspections severely hindering the delivery of much-needed aid.

Rami Khouri's distinguished academic career, including fellowships at Harvard, Princeton, Stanford, and more, positions him as a uniquely qualified individual to provide deep insights into this complex issue. Quickly, as I refer to my notes, I also want to discuss with Rami the future of Palestine when the guns go silent.

Roifield Brown: Welcome to Mid Atlantic, Rami Khouri. How are you today?

Rami Khouri: I'm good. 

Roifield Brown: First off, tell us about where you were when the news of Hamas's attack on southern Israel broke. 

Rami Khouri: I was in Cambridge, near Boston. We heard the news in the morning, and it wasn't clear at first, but it soon became evident that it was a very significant development.

Roifield Brown: In hindsight, should we have been shocked or surprised that Hamas launched an attack on Israel?

Rami Khouri: No, not really. If someone seriously follows the Israeli-Palestinian or Arab-Israeli conflict, they wouldn't be surprised. This conflict has been ongoing for about a hundred years. It started in 1923 when the League of Nations mandated Great Britain to govern the areas taken from the Ottoman Empire in Western Asia, including what became Lebanon, Syria, Israel, Palestine, Jordan, and Iraq. 

We see actions on both sides, whether individual attacks, state-level assaults, or actions by non-state actors like Hamas. It's important to understand that this is a war between two parties who have been fighting for about a century. To pinpoint a specific date like October 7 as the start is neither useful nor accurate. Major milestones include the Oslo talks and the years 1948 and 1967, but the overall conflict has been ongoing. It's fundamentally a struggle between the Jewish people, who then created the state of Israel, and the Palestinians, who have never had their own state.

Roifield Brown: It's interesting that this conflict is between the Palestinian people and the Israeli people. Can you expand on the historical context, starting perhaps from 1947 and the UN partition, through to October 7, 2023?

Rami Khouri: Historically, it was more of an Arab-Israeli conflict, but post the Six-Day War, various Arab parties dropped out, making it more of a Palestinian-Israeli conflict. This change has shaped the aspirations and means of the Palestinian people to seek their own recognized state. Initially, the Palestinians lacked the military, technological, and diplomatic capabilities that the Zionists, mostly European Jews, had. The Palestinians were unable to confront the Zionists and their Western supporters effectively. Consequently, Israel was created, and the Palestinian population was disenfranchised, with some under occupation, others expelled or fleeing. Since then, Palestinians have been fighting for their rights to a state in their homeland. 

The issue now is the capability of the Palestinian leadership to harness the widespread global support for the Palestinian cause and engage in serious diplomatic negotiations with the Israelis. Hamas has become significant in this regard. Developing into a proficient military force since the late 1980s, Hamas has demonstrated its ability to resist Israel and carry out significant attacks, like the one on October 7.

Roifield Brown: It's notable that you mention Hamas's capabilities. Could you speak more about the international response to Hamas's actions and the broader Palestinian struggle?

Rami Khouri: The global response has been more supportive of the Palestinian people rather than Hamas's specific actions. Many view Hamas's actions as controversial, with opinions divided between seeing them

 as legitimate resistance or terrorism. A key point of contention is attacks against civilians, which many consider closer to terrorism. To seriously assess the conflict, it's crucial to apply the same standards of morality, law, and decency to both sides. We need to stop all forms of terrorism, occupation, and cruelty. 

The Israeli and Palestinian actions are part of a war, and any analysis must consider both parties. The goal should be a resolution that looks at the conflict fairly and equally, much like in other historical conflicts like South Africa or Northern Ireland. However, unresolved conflicts like Cyprus show the complexities involved.

Roifield Brown: Considering the current geopolitical landscape, what recent developments have there been, especially regarding international legal proceedings?

Rami Khouri: Recent legal developments, such as the International Court of Justice's ruling on Gaza, mark a significant milestone. For the first time in this conflict's history, both sides were able to present their cases publicly in a legitimate venue, judged by impartial experts. The court's finding suggests a plausible case of Israeli involvement in actions that could be seen as genocidal. This is unprecedented, and it's changing the dynamic significantly. 

Just recently, a federal judge in the U.S. acknowledged the plausibility of genocidal actions in a case against top U.S. officials for their complicity. This indicates a shift in global perspectives, with even the U.S. beginning to sanction Israelis for extrajudicial attacks and considering recognizing a Palestinian state. Similarly, the UK government is also exploring the recognition of a Palestinian state, indicating a gradual change in Western attitudes.

Roifield Brown: How do you see the situation evolving in terms of international politics and the potential for a Palestinian state?

Rami Khouri: The international landscape is shifting. Current discussions include a long-term ceasefire in Gaza and the possibility of immediate negotiations for a permanent peace settlement between Palestine and Israel. These developments are largely a result of Hamas's actions, which have significantly altered the diplomatic landscape. 

Resistance movements like Hamas, Hezbollah, and others have emerged over the past few decades as significant forces. Unlike traditional Arab governments, they don't just plead for peace; they fight for their rights. It's better to negotiate, but people are left with no choice when serious, honest negotiations are absent. The hope is that this momentum will lead to serious negotiations recognizing the rights of both Israelis and Palestinians to have their own state and live in peace with equal rights. 

Roifield Brown: Let's talk about the possible structure of a Palestinian state. What would it look like?

Rami Khouri: A sovereign, independent Palestinian state would likely include territory equivalent to what was in Palestinian hands or administered by Jordan and Egypt before 1967, meaning the West Bank and Gaza, accounting for 22 percent of historic Palestine. The location of this land would need to be negotiated, especially considering the large Jewish settlements along the old green line. 

Some settlements would need to be evacuated, and others might be incorporated into Israel, with Israel providing the Palestinian state land of equal value elsewhere. The major Israeli settlements might be incorporated into Israel, while others, especially those in the interior of the West Bank or near the Jordan River, would likely need to be evacuated. 

A key point of negotiation will be the demilitarisation of the Palestinian state, which the Palestinians have generally agreed to. This would mean no offensive army, possibly just a well-equipped police force. Reciprocity is key, and concessions must be mutual to ensure progress towards justice and peace.

Roifield Brown: There seems to be a significant change needed in Israeli internal politics for this to happen. Could you expand on that?

Rami Khouri: Yes, a massive shift in Israeli internal politics is essential. Extreme right-wing parties in Israel, like those led by Ben Gavir, hold a messianic belief in claiming the entire land from the river to the sea. These parties are currently propping up the Likud party and keeping Netanyahu in power, despite his long standing opposition to a two-state solution. 

However, there is potential for realignment in Israeli internal politics, especially considering Netanyahu's unpopularity and the public's reaction to the conflict. A solution cannot be about destroying a significant part of Gaza, as this only fuels more resistance against Israel. Instead, Israelis in the centre or on the left need to advocate for a settlement that acknowledges the rights and needs of both peoples.

Brown: Jim, you've raised your hand, Jim, my good friend in Atlanta, the stage is yours.

Jim: Hi, Roifield. Hi, Dr. Khouri. Just a couple, I'll try to be brief in my questions. Dr. Khouri, do you think... you spoke about 101 years that sort of takes us back to the Balfour Declaration. Do you think the Balfour Declaration in and of itself is where things became exceedingly problematic and sideways? That's question one. Question two, early on I thought I heard you say there's never been a Palestinian government capable of engaging the Israelis. Did I hear you correctly on that?

Khouri: Pretty much, yeah. The Palestinians can have a government that is able to engage with the Israelis or any government in the world. The Balfour Declaration was the critical turning point, which was preceded by acts of great dishonesty by the British colonial government. They promised the Arabs something and then reneged on their promise. 

Jim: Is there a capable Palestinian government to negotiate with a new government in Israel?

Khouri: Yes, the answer is absolutely. Palestinians can have a government that is able to engage with the Israelis. We have thousands of amazingly skilled, educated, global people. The real problem is every time there has been a government, it's been able to concentrate power and not act democratically. There was a brief period after Oslo when there were elections, and Hamas was elected. We are perfectly capable of running ourselves. We don't have to have this Orientalist racist nonsense that we get from Europe and North America and Israel.

Brown: Thank you, Professor Khouri. If people want to maybe catch up with you on social media and on any of your writings, where can they do that?

Khouri: It's all on Twitter. It's @RamiKhouri, one word.